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IAP-175s won't mesh

  • 1.  IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 07:31 PM

    Hello,

     

    I'm having trouble getting a series of IAP-175s to mesh together. I have the following setup:

     

    IAP #1 - A 90deg 2.4/5ghz antenna @ 14dbi, a 2.4ghz 12dbi Omni and 5ghz 12dbi Omni connected to ethernet / PoE

    IAP #2 - Two 90 deg 2.4/5ghz antennas @14dbi running as a mesh point using PoE

    IAP #3 - Two 90 deg 2.4/5ghz antennas @14 dbi running as a mesh point using PoE

    IAP #4 - A 90deg 2.4/5ghz antenna @ 14dbi, a 2.4ghz 12dbi Omni and 5ghz 12dbi Omni using PoE

     

    Presently, my problem is that I can't even get a mesh connection to work anymore between #1 and #2. This used to work, and has been up for a few weeks now. However, today (in an effort to fix another problem) I upgraded the firmware from my VC and now IAP #2 won't mesh with #1. Physically rebooting #2 seemed to fix it for a minute (IAP #2 appeared in my VC list of nodes) but then disappeared a few minutes later and hasn't come back.

     

    Secondly, IAP #3 has never been able to connect to the mesh. There is a clear line of site between the two locations and I previously connected IAP #3 to the hardline network (and added it to the VC) before installing it at it's site. 

     

    I'm very new to this sort of tech, and while I've so far done decently in understanding it and getting things running so far I feel like I need more help now. Can someone please lend a hand? 

     

    John



  • 2.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 07:33 PM

    A bit more detail:

     

    The IAP #2 came back into the fold for a minute or two, then disappeared again. How do I figure out what's going on here? Please help!

     

    John



  • 3.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 07:50 PM

    More questions than suggestions.....

     

    Please verify that all four nodes are running the same version of SW.  What version are you running now?

     

    What is the model number of the antenna's you are using?  They do not sound like Aruba antennas by the description you provided.  How are they oriented and what will each antenna be doing?  Is Client access on one pair and Mesh on the other?  The IAP-175 is a 2x2 MIMO AP so each radio must have both leads connected and they are over-under.

     

    It would be helpful if you post a diagram showing the AP locations and orientations in Google Earth.



  • 4.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 08:14 PM
      |   view attached

    I'm happy to answer all questions -- I've got a lot of money invested into this project already so the faster I get what I need done the better.

     

    You will have to forgive me because while I'm pretty solid with software this is the very first time I've tried doing something like this on the WiFi side.

     

    Regarding the Antennas, this is what I have. Site #2, #3 use strictly the 2.4/5ghz pointed to provide 180deg of coverage on alternating sides of the coverage area.

     

    The 2.4/5ghz 90 degree antenna: 

     

    http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-24-49-58-ghz-dual-feed-dual-band-90-degree-sector-panel-antenna

     

    The 2.4 Omni Antenna

     

    http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-24-ghz-15-dbi-omnidirectional-antenna-n-female-connector

     

    The 5 Omni Antenna

     

    http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-12-dbi-professional-omnidirectional-antenna

     

    The intention was to provide a 5ghz backhaul down the coverage area, and 2.4 coverage along the same route. 

     

    I cannot seem to attach a .kmz file to the post, so I'm going to try to attach just an image. Site #1 and #4 have two omnis (one 2.4 and one 5) and one 90 degree 2.4/5ghz (from site 1 pointing to site 2, from site 4 pointing toward site 3). Sites 2 and 3 both have two 90 degree 2.4ghz/5ghz, Site #2 is oriented 180degrees pointing west, Site #3 is oriented 180 degrees pointing east.

     

     

    John

     



  • 5.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 08:32 PM
      |   view attached

    First is the official response that the antennas are not certified or supported for the solution.   Only the antennas on the Aruba price list are supported and certified.

     

    With that out of the way........

     

    I'm not I follow you regarding the number of antennas attached to AP#1.  The IAP-175 is a dual radio AP and has 2 connectors for the 5Ghz antenna and 2 connectors for the 2.4Ghz radio.  It sounds like you have and issue with the number and way the antennas are connected.

     

    For the 5Ghz antenna the Aruba equivalent is ANT-2x2-5010 which is a 10dBI antenna and ships as a pair...one is Horizontally polarized and the other is vertically polarized --- both are required to be connected for proper operation.  Please see the attached IAP-175 installation guide on page 3.  R0 is the 5Ghz radio and the ANT-2x2-5010 would be connected to connector 4 and 5.

     

    Similarly, for the 2.4Ghz radio you need a 2x2 antenna connected to connector 1 and 6.  This antenna must be oriented in the same direction.

     

    Lastly, with a 90 degree antenna you may be getting too far out on the fringes to get a good connectionssince your APs appear to be due North and South of each other.

     

    Do you have photos of each AP so we can see how the antennas are connected and oriented?

    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    IAP-175 IG rev 02.pdf   2.99MB 1 version


  • 6.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 09:06 PM
      |   view attached

    This is an example of the site using the ANT-2x2-5010 (5Ghz omni pair) and ANT-90 (2.4Ghz) downtilt omni.  The red links are the mesh links and the predicted throughput is good.  The yellow coverage is ground coverage from the 2.4Ghz antenna.

     

    I am also attaching a .zip file which is a .kmz which is the output from our Outdoor planner.  Open it up in Google Earth and you can enable and disable the lower data rates on the 2.4Ghz antenna to see additional coverage.  NOTE:  This does not take LoS or obstructions into account.

     

    Michigan.jpg

    Attachment(s)

    zip
    MI_new.zip   365K 1 version


  • 7.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 09:27 PM

    Thanks so much for your response. I do understand that my antenna's aren't Aruba antennas and the official answer.. 

     

    I think perhaps I am misunderstanding something about the IAP-175s and MIMO concepts in general. Like I said I'm very new to this and am sort of learning as I go. For Site 1 and Site 4 what I have is the following:

     

    R0 - Attached to the 5ghz of my 90 degree sector

    R0-1 - Attached to my 5ghz Omni

    R1 - Attached to the 2.4ghz of my 90 degree sector

    R1-1 - Attached to my 2.4ghz Omni

     

    For Site 2 and 3 I have the following:

     

    R0 - Attached to the 5ghz of my 90 degree sector 

    R0 - 1 - Attached to the 5ghz of the other 90 degree sector

    R1 & R1-1 Attached to the 2.4 ghz of the 90 degee sectors respectively.

     

    All of my antennas are vertically polarized. Are you saying that in order to create a proper connection I will need both vertical and horizontal polarization? 

     

    Note, that until I upgraded my firmware today The connection between #1 and #2 was working fine and had been for weeks. It is only since I upgraded the firmware that suddenly #2 can't mesh with #1 anymore. I haven't successfully setup a mesh at all to #3. What could be causing my mesh between #1 & #2 to fail after a software upgrade? I can confirm that both are running the same version of ArubaOS (6.2.1.0-3.3.0.0_38115)

     

    John

     

     



  • 8.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 09:33 PM

    MIMO needs H-Pol and V-Pol attached.

     

    R0 - should be 5Ghz Omni H-Pol

    R0-1 - should be 5Ghz Omni V-Pol

    R1 - Could be your 90Deg one of two connectors

    R1-1 - Could be your 90Deg the other one of two connectors

     

    For Site 2 and 3 I have the following:

     

    R0 -   These cannot be connected to separate antennas pointing opposite directions. 

    R0 - 1 -

    R1 & R1-1 Attached to the 2.4 ghz of the 90 degee sectors respectively.

     

     The pattern of the L-com 2.4Ghz 90 Deg antenna does not seem to lend itself to client access very well as it is a very narrow vertical  beam and wont get down to the clients (unless it is mounted low) compared to a downtilt antenna that drives coverage down rather than sideways.  You will catch some of the side lobes but it will performa as well.



  • 9.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 10:39 PM

    So what you're saying is I need to install 5ghz MIMO antennas (probably Omni's?) at each site to establish the backhaul. As far as the 2.4 ghz coverage, you are suggesting I may have problems with the antennas I have for client coverage but otherwise they are fine, correct?

     

    I have a second site where I have a slightly different setup (that is presently being installed).. It is two IAP-175s where the 5ghz is transmitting using a 60deg dual polarity antenna to a recieving (ideal) antenna with 2.4 deg sectors  at each site. Based on this discussion, that should work okay correct (at least as far as antennas themselves are concerned)?

     

    John



  • 10.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 11:08 PM

    High gain omnis are going to be the easiest.  Just be sure they are installed at the same height.

     

    On the 2.4Ghz antenna take a look at the spec sheet of the L-com antenna.  One view is what the coverage looks like if you were above the antenna looking down.  The other view is what the pattern looks like if you were looking at the signal from the side.   High-gain antennas have a very narrow slice of RF.  Think of looking at a bagel from the side then looking at a CD from the side.  So, if that high gain antenna is up high the signal is up above the users on the ground.

     

    I'm not sure I understand your description on the second site.  Can you post a quick diagram showing the two APs, the antenna orientation, and description of how they are connected?

     

     



  • 11.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 11:21 PM
      |   view attached

    I am hoping that I can use the mechanical downtilt to compensate for the fact the antennas are a bit off the ground. Most of the 90 deg antennas however are installed maybe 8-10ft off the ground, so I'm hoping that's not too high. 


    Regarding the 5ghz Omnis, how much height difference is too much? Site 1, 2, and 4 are almost identical heights, but site 3 is about 10-15 feet higher than the rest.

     

    For the second site I've attached is an image. Site A is on a tower with 2 2.4ghz 90 degree antennas facing westward, and a 5ghz  panel antenna facing toward site B. Site B has an Omnidirectional 2.4 (Aruba 2005) and the same 5ghz panel antenna facing eastward. Based on what you've explained this should work okay yes?

     

    John



  • 12.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 11:24 PM


  • 13.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 07, 2013 12:07 AM

    high-gain omnis should be within around 3 - 5 feet of each other in height.

     

    For more detail on antenna types, mounting and installation I suggest taking a look at our Outdoor Validated Reference Design Guides here :  http://www.arubanetworks.com/technology/reference-design-guides/#Outdoor_Mesh .

     

    Here are a couple of other helpful links (the first one has more information specific to your scenarios):

     

    http://community.arubanetworks.com/aruba/attachments/aruba/tkb@tkb/94/1/AirHeads%20Rio%202010%20-%20Outdoor%20WLANs.pdf

     

    http://community.arubanetworks.com/t5/Community-Knowledge-Base/AirheadsConf-LV-2013-Breakout-Networks-Outdoor-Network/ta-p/69798

     

     



  • 14.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 10, 2013 01:42 PM

    Coogle,

     

    You have multiple design problems here.

     

    If you are using separate single-element antennas with a MIMO radio, the antenna type, pattern and installed angle (horizontal/vertical) must match exactly on both.

     

    you cannot use an omni on one connector and a panel on the other.  The whole idea of MIMO is that both connectors serve the same coverage area.  won't work.   So that is the problem on IAP #1 and #4.

     

    Next, you must use dual-polarization antennas or you will not get high speed rates.  Your antennas are all vertically polarized, which means they will interfere with each other when using MIMO.   So you will get maximum single stream rates.

     

    Our ANT-2x2-5010 antennas for example contain 1 H and 1V omni whose patterns have been exactly matched per my comment above.

     

     



  • 15.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 10, 2013 02:36 PM

    Thank you for the advice. I am trying to fix my install and get things working, and here's what I've determined so far. My best thought is as follows:

     

    All four sites need to have the 5ghz band replaced with MIMO 5ghz Omnis. I completely understand you have specialized hardware for your IAPs, that may not be financially a good thing for us. So my thought here is to replace the 5ghz band with the following antennas:

     

    http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-51-58-ghz-13-dbi-dual-polarity-mimo-omnidirectional-antenna-n-female-connectors

     

    If I understand it correctly this should work, do you agree? I also have a few questions: 

     

    1) When it comes to Omnis my research seems to indicate that there is a trade-off between higher gain antennas and coverage around the antenna itself. Meaning, it seems to me that the higher the gain antenna the farther the signal can reach but at the cost of that signal being almost non-existant near the anteanna. Is this at least a partly accurate statement? If so, the antenna above is a 13dbi but there is also a 10dbi version available. Which makes more sense for my application?

     

    2) I am slightly concerned about the height-matching discussion earlier in this thread. Of the four sites, they are all within a couple feet of each other in terms of height off the ground. However, Site 3 is considerably higher (it is a nearly 3 story building vs. the others which are in the story-story and a half). What might I be able to do to work around this, or is that likely going to work out fine? 

     

    Thank you all for being so accomidating and willing to help a novice! I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in hardware at this point and it's been stressful to not have things work.



  • 16.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 10, 2013 04:22 PM

    Coogle,

     

    I am very very uncomfortable with that L-com antenna.  Normally it's best to have a full wavelength of spacing between elements, that thing jams both H and V within what appears to be just 2-3cm of one another.

     

    Also, you'll have to buy external RF cables to connect from the AP, and the cost to mount and install separate antennas.

     

    Our ANT-2x2-5010 are direct attach, so no extra cables or connectors.  And they have proper spacing.  And they are supported by Aruba TAC.   

     

    As for beamwidth, yes higher gain means less beamwidth.  See my video here on "Understanding Antenna Patterns" for a general discussion of this topic.  http://www.arubanetworks.com/technology/engineer-videos/

     

    You have to do the trig to determine whether for a given distance, two nodes at different heights are in one another beamwidths.  there are triangle calculators online to help you.  Or hire an outdoor specialist to consult with you.

     

     



  • 17.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 11, 2013 04:13 AM

    Thanks for your advice on that antenna. I appreciate it, and I apologize for bothering you with other vendor's hardware but I apparently got some bad advice early on (or didn't fully understand it) and as a result I'm trying to not waste thousands of dollars in antenna hardware by dealing with the vendor I was told to use. Originally I was using all Aruba Omni antennas and I was getting bad performance coverage wise and that's where the recommendation to change the antennas came from with the outdoor engineer I was working with.

     

    As things stand right now I have all four antenna sites totally installed as previously described, nothing's working and there are tens of thousands invested. We're already way over budget and this is a further setback, so my only choice is to try to figure out myself and rely on the kind assistance of forums like this. I am likely going to have to go back to every single site and replace every single antenna, which will cost even more time and money (not to mention the cost of the antennas), so I really want to make sure I try to get the second shot at this correct.

     

    I watched your video (in fact I had already found it, it was one of the reasons I decided to go with Aruba gear in the first place - so I watched it again) and conceptually I very much understand the various types of antennas and gain at this point. I think conceptually I still don't get certain things... I understand for example why I wouldn't be able to send as much data in my backhaul using non-MIMO antennas, and one could assume that I'd only be able to send half the data since I'm only using one plane... but if I have a 5ghz v-pol antenna pointed at another 5ghz vpol antenna why can no link be established at all? What am I missing here understanding wise? Because in my existing install Site 1 and 2 see each other just fine, but Site 2 and 3 do not and all three of them are using the same directional V-pol dual 2.4/5ghz 90 degree sectors with a clear line of site. 

     

    I ultimately really need to make sure I get this backhaul correct so I followed your example in the videos to plan it again. The results of that are attached. If you could please take a look and let me know if there is anything i'm missing, but it looks like it is good? I have 4 sites, site 1 is the sole mesh portal and the rest are points. I used 5010 antennas for each site and for the planner disabled radio 1. I also am attaching the input report. Assuming things look good I can move forward to client coverages.

     

    Thank you again for all of your help so far, I really appreciate it.

    Attachment(s)

    zip
    Test_new.kmz.zip   86K 1 version
    pdf
    inputReport.pdf   82K 1 version


  • 18.  RE: IAP-175s won't mesh

    Posted Jun 06, 2013 09:29 PM

    Thanks so much for your response. I do understand that my antenna's aren't Aruba antennas and the official answer.. 

     

    I think perhaps I am misunderstanding something about the IAP-175s and MIMO concepts in general. Like I said I'm very new to this and am sort of learning as I go. For Site 1 and Site 4 what I have is the following:

     

    R0 - Attached to the 5ghz of my 90 degree sector

    R0-1 - Attached to my 5ghz Omni

    R1 - Attached to the 2.4ghz of my 90 degree sector

    R1-1 - Attached to my 2.4ghz Omni

     

    For Site 2 and 3 I have the following:

     

    R0 - Attached to the 5ghz of my 90 degree sector 

    R0 - 1 - Attached to the 5ghz of the other 90 degree sector

    R1 & R1-1 Attached to the 2.4 ghz of the 90 degee sectors respectively.

     

    All of my antennas are vertically polarized. Are you saying that in order to create a proper connection I will need both vertical and horizontal polarization? 

     

    Note, that until I upgraded my firmware today The connection between #1 and #2 was working fine and had been for weeks. It is only since I upgraded the firmware that suddenly #2 can't mesh with #1 anymore. I haven't successfully setup a mesh at all to #3. What could be causing my mesh between #1 & #2 to fail after a software upgrade? I can confirm that both are running the same version of ArubaOS (6.2.1.0-3.3.0.0_38115)

     

    John