Controllerless Networks

Hello!

I recognized, that outdoor AP's (365 / 375) with installation type set to outdoor and country code austria, are hopping to channels above 140.
These channels are reserved for radar in Europe/Austria.

Shouldn't outdoor flagged AP's avoid this channels if the cluster is set to the correct country code?

Firmware: Instant 8.6.0.5-8.6.0.5_75979

Management: Airwave 8.2.11.0 and central

For my understanding, this is not the expected behaviour.

Thanks for your input!

Have you checked to see if you have the correct DRT file on the IAPs, or if you can upgrade them and check available channels again? 

What do you get when you run the "show ap allowed-channels <country code>" command? That should breakout what you see on an indoor vs outdoor.

Hey!

Hmm, yes....

See the output:

***************************************************************************************************

9/14/2020 14:06:40 PM Device IP: xxxxxxxxx Device Name: xxxxxxxx Command: AP Allowed Channels

***************************************************************************************************

show ap allowed-channels

Allowed Channels for AP Type 315 Country Code AT
------------------------------------------------

PHY Type Allowed Channels
-------- ----------------
802.11g (indoor) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
802.11a (indoor) 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 100 104 108 112 116 120 124 128 132 136 140 149 153 157 161 165
802.11g (outdoor) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
802.11a (outdoor) 100 104 108 112 116 120 124 128 132 136 140 149 153 157 161 165
802.11g 40MHz (indoor) 1-5 2-6 3-7 4-8 5-9 6-10 7-11 8-12 9-13
802.11a 40MHz (indoor) 36-40 44-48 52-56 60-64 100-104 108-112 116-120 124-128 132-136 149-153 157-161
802.11g 40MHz (outdoor) 1-5 2-6 3-7 4-8 5-9 6-10 7-11 8-12 9-13
802.11a 40MHz (outdoor) 100-104 108-112 116-120 124-128 132-136 149-153 157-161
802.11a 80MHz (indoor) 36-48 52-64 100-112 116-128 149-161
802.11a 80MHz (outdoor) 100-112 116-128 149-161
802.11a 160MHz (indoor) 36-64 100-128
802.11a 160MHz (outdoor) 100-128
802.11a (DFS) 52 56 60 64 100 104 108 112 116 120 124 128 132 136 140

That does not match austria.....

I can try to update the cluster and check if it is fixed.

Until now, I also not checked if there is known bug regarding regulatoriys in the 8.6.0.5 code....

Hey!

DRT Version:

DRT version :1.0_75772
DRT build time :Jun 5,2020
Default from Image :Yes
Upgrade in process :No
Upgrade status :drt ok
DRT sync in process :No
Reset in process :No

Cheers

Yea thats strange. Maybe a TAC call?

The newest DRT Version (DRT 1.0_76935 AP) was released on Sep 9, 2020.

On the other hand, the actual IAP 8.6.0.5 was released on Released on Jun 29, 2020.

So, I updated the DRT File.
But the channels 149-153 are still listet as allowed outdoor channels.

# show drt state

DRT version :1.0_76935
DRT build time :Aug 31,2020
Default from Image :No
Upgrade in process :No
Upgrade status :drt ok
DRT sync in process :No
Reset in process :No
APSBGEG016# show arm
arm Adaptive Radio Management
arm-channels

# show ap allowed-channels

Allowed Channels for AP Type 315 Country Code AT
------------------------------------------------
PHY Type Allowed Channels
-------- ----------------
802.11g (indoor) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
802.11a (indoor) 36 40 44 48 52 56 60 64 100 104 108 112 116 120 124 128 132 136 140 149 153 157 161 165
802.11g (outdoor) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
802.11a (outdoor) 100 104 108 112 116 120 124 128 132 136 140 149 153 157 161 165
802.11g 40MHz (indoor) 1-5 2-6 3-7 4-8 5-9 6-10 7-11 8-12 9-13
802.11a 40MHz (indoor) 36-40 44-48 52-56 60-64 100-104 108-112 116-120 124-128 132-136 149-153 157-161
802.11g 40MHz (outdoor) 1-5 2-6 3-7 4-8 5-9 6-10 7-11 8-12 9-13
802.11a 40MHz (outdoor) 100-104 108-112 116-120 124-128 132-136 149-153 157-161
802.11a 80MHz (indoor) 36-48 52-64 100-112 116-128 149-161
802.11a 80MHz (outdoor) 100-112 116-128 149-161
802.11a 160MHz (indoor) 36-64 100-128
802.11a 160MHz (outdoor) 100-128
802.11a (DFS) 52 56 60 64 100 104 108 112 116 120 124 128 132 136 140

I will open a TAC ticket.

Thank you for your inputs!

As far as what I have access to, those are valid channels (UNI3), but at a very low EIRP (25mW), so not very functional. it may be that in those cases, that those channels be excluded from the regulatory profiles where those channels are not desired in your deployment due to the lower power.

14dBm, per EN 300 440.

Hello!

If these channels are used on indoor AP's, it would not be a very big problem.

But, these channels are allowed for outdoor AP's.

And that's the problem!

We have a central MSP customer, in the middle of an austrian City, operating an outdoor AP.

It took only two weeks after deployment until a radio measuring vehicle of the federal radio authority (I hope this is translated well enough) appears, and the customer and us got a warning.
We got a deadline to fix this, because we interfered with a weather radar (in austria, weather radar is starting with channel 144).

If not, there is a penalty.

So, it is very urgent to fix the DRT File.

We checked some IAP Clusters, it happens very often that the AP hopps to channel 149. Especially in the near of an Airport.

Now, the most of our Customers opperating outdoor AP's, are MM or Master/Standby Customers.
I have not checked them until now.
But I'm convinced that the controllers acting in the same way.

The "workaround" is, to overide the ARM channel selection by now.
But this is not a glorious way for us, because well known SOHO vendors do not interfere out of the box with our federal wether radar.

@ Jerrod Howard and Onno:

It's right that it is allowed to transmit at 25 mW on this frequences.
But the Telecommunications Authority was able to receive the SSID on channel 149 from a few crossings further.

They also checked if we changed the channel, and confirmed that we changed to 140.
Intresting is, that the signal strength on 140 was lower than on 153 or 149!

This leads to the thoughts that the allowed limit of 25 mW on 5725 and above are exceeded.

Is it possible, if the Radio strength at the ARM settings is set to 12 - 18 dBM, the DRT file limit of the frequences 5725 and above gets overwritten?

THX

From the ARM history you posted in your initial post, you can see that on channel 149 the AP reduces to 15dBm, which for me converts to 31mW, but that may be rounding errors. So, the AP will adhere to the DRT (Regulatory Table); but you may ask TAC why it is 15dBm and not 14dBm which I would expect. But as mentioned before the UNII-3 is allowed outdoor and without DFS if operated at the low power of 25mW (SRD) see link on Wikipedia. But I would avoid a conversation with the regulatory authority myself.

If you have an free line-of-sight, then I can imagine that with a good antenna you can see it few blocks away. To take out your problem with the regulatory authority, it is probably easiest to take the channels that they complain out of the channel plan. And work with TAC to get investigated if the APs actually transmit too much power as there is antenna gain in the equation as to where there might be an error, but that is hard to actually measure without expensive equipment. TAC could help in here.

Please send a PM (Personal Message) with the TAC case number to me and Jerrod so we can monitor it.

Hey Herman!

Sorry for the delay!
I will send you the TAC case Number.

We were able to measure Channel 153 and 149 with -68 dBm at 10 or 11 meters away.

That should be OK!
So far we have not been able to confirm the claims, but authority is authority.

We just own site survey equipment (Netscout Airmagnet) and we are not able to clearly prove this.
So, we are dependent on TAC.

Thank you!

Hello!

A short update to this topic:

In austria, the SRD range is not harmonized for wifi use.

But the transmition is allowed for "non-specific" SRDs with a max transmission power of 25mW under compliance of EN 300 440.

That means, your AP's is not allowed to exceed 25 mW and must be EN 300 440 certified.

AP-365 and AP-375 are both EN 300 440 certified.
The certification is not listed fo AP-365 at the AP portfolio on the aruba page, but you can request the declaration document of AP-365 which includes this information from your aruba SE.